How to Drink Reverend Hubert Winter Gin Liqueur with Thomas Lester

Susan: I’m so excited to have you here. It was so great to meet you last year. I’ve wanted to have you on the show for so long. And now of course, winter is here and since you make a winter liqueur, it was time. Where did this idea even come from?

Tom: Good question because I have no idea about spirits. I’ve never worked in booze. I’ve had various jobs in the past, some incredibly brilliant and amazing and some less so good. This came about because I love having dinner parties. I always like people at the end of a dinner party to stay for an extra couple of hours to make sure, since we’re all together, that we make the most out of hanging out.

Because of that, I started making a limoncello because in London, for me, 10 years ago, it was quite difficult to find a nice limoncello. I started importing Amalfi lemons and zesting them, so then at the end, we could all have a shot or two and keep going. That progressed into now every time I have a dinner party, I’ve got to have some kind of cool homemade something or other.

We moved into a new house and I had a cherry tree in the garden and It was so bountiful and beautiful and amazing. I mean, I’m living in London, right? This is a rare find and I started messing around with the cherries and I was making cherry brandy and cherry liqueur and cherry jello, whatever you want to call it.

Things were going well. On the back of that, I then started to add different ingredients and I felt like I should do one for Christmas Day. My mom is Christmas Day mad. I was hosting the family so, I started putting in some other stuff.

Susan: Lucky guests of yours. Oh my gosh. I wish I’d known you then. Every time you go to a dinner party, there’s some different spirit after the whole party ends and it’s another party.

Tom: And part of having these parties is that we all love a party, but also, it’s the excitement and the buildup and what wine am I going to choose? Right. That’s kind of the joy of doing these things. And so, on Christmas Day, one year I made a basic version of what is now the Winter Gin Liqueur and it was cloudy and gloopy.

It tasted all right. It was nice. So, the Christmas pudding comes out and I’ll bring it to the table and it’s lit and then we’re all doing shots. And that was when a couple of friends of mine who are not mad on liqueurs decided that this was quite good. And so, I went out to refine it, to try and make it into something better.

Susan: Do you remember what that first recipe included?

Tom: I do. So, imagine you’ve got this Kilner jar, right. And I’ve got three of them, I’d like to say none of them were the same, ever, because it was just whatever was around. So, I grabbed some cinnamon and some star anise and cloves. If I had fresh ginger, I’d chuck in fresh ginger.

If I had ground ginger, I’d use that. I think originally my son was young, having raisins in those little packs in the playgrounds. So, then I’d chuck in a couple of them. But it was the orange and lemon that would make a difference. And by that, what I mean is. I love Amalfi lemons and that went back to making limoncello.

When you’ve got one of those enormous lemons and you’re zesting it and you’ve got oil on both sides!  While most of it was chucking it in, the lemons were just a bit more delicate and a bit, I felt more love with the lemons and then I’d buy Sicilian oranges, right?

It was that that gave it the freshness and the boost. Then you had a bit of gloopiness afterwards, but what I mean, I think, when I looked at some that was left over a year later, the sediment was halfway up of the bottle. So, it wasn’t an attractive looking thing.

Susan: So, your friend said, let’s refine this.

Tom: Yeah. Then I got introduced to Joe and some people know Joe, so Joe has got the most amazing brain when it comes to processes and his palate is recognized as one of the best in the world. Joe is a guy who, when you meet him, you don’t forget him. He has got a ridiculous palate and a ridiculous knowledge of anything to do with alcohol or wine.

Some people might know him because he has won Wine Personality of the Year and he used to be that the wine or spirits guy on Tom Kerridge’s Food and Drink. Often been on television, podcast, blah, blah, blah. He came along and I said, “Have a taste. Do you think this is worth pursuing?” And his first question was, ‘Which raisins do you use?”

Susan: And you’re like from my son’s pack!

Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I think they’re called something or other. And so, ‘Where do they come from? What oil are they covered in?’ And I mean, I kind of opened a can of worms a bit didn’t I, but we had six months of, at first awesome fun testing out whether it was vodka or gin and a bit of lemon and a bit of star anise. Was the Sri Lankan cinnamon better than the Indian cinnamon?

That was fine until we just lost track of time in a way. And after six months, it’s time to produce something. So, we then took it up a level and the lemons were a no brainer, right?

Because the Amalfi, the lemons, the orange. We found the oranges growing in an orchard behind the lemons down on the Amalfi, so we just felt like that would save on carbon footprint. We got all of them together. Then it came together to taste and it looked incredibly different in polished and shiny. It was an amazing moment when we produced our first batch.

Susan: Well, hold on now, hold on. Let’s back up a little. Did you seek out Joe specifically thinking this is going to be a business or this is going to be a bit of fun and ‘m not sure where this is going to go? Or did you just meet him socially at a party and said, “Oh, I have this thing. This is an idea.”

Tom: So, I’ve got a great friend of mine that owns an amazing restaurant called Randall & Aubin on Brewer Street, so delicious. And he is friends with Joe Wadsack, but he had always said to me, he felt like introducing me to Joe could mean big trouble because we both enjoy a night out.

Susan: In a good way. I assume.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah. He was nervous. When I met Joe for lunch it was clear, first of all, within one minute that we were going to be friends and get on. I think Joe is not a person who is going to do something by halves and unless he thinks it’s a good idea. So, when we’re meeting for lunch, I was probably just looking forward to a nice lunch and where’s it going to go?

I think by the time we left the restaurant in the early hours or the late hours of the evening, I think then, we thought there could be something, but it’s all very well and good saying. Right. Okay. We’ve got something. What do we do next? What happened next was pivotal. I got introduced to Fairfax from Sipsmith who very kindly gave me two hours.

I’m sitting there, thinking I haven’t got a clue what I’m doing and he obviously does know what he’s doing. So, it was quick-fire questions for two hours and key questions where, I’ve got X amount of money, what do I spend it on? He gave me some good advice about what to spend it on, about the label, about the marketing, about how the Sipsmith journey had gone and what he wished he’d done differently. So that then started to put more meat on the bones as far as labeling, as far as bottling, as far as being different. That’s when it kind of all became a bit of a reality.

Susan: That must’ve been absolutely amazing to have his insight, but back to Joe and the different ingredients. It must’ve been such an education for you because, we do think, oh, raisins are raisins, cinnamon is cinnamon, unless you’ve been around a lot of chefs and, bartenders, who to me are chefs. Did you feel that that six months was just like, oh my God, what a learning experience?

Tom: What a huge learning experience, but it taught me also to understand the tastes and the flavors that you get. So, some people have got good palates and some less, but when you start, your brain and your palate start connecting together. What I mean by that is I could start telling the difference between six bits of orange in a bit of gin and leave it for two weeks and I could tell the difference.

Joe would open up the cinnamon and he’d look at the inside. I don’t know how this guy even knows this stuff. He’s good. Just got an incredible brain. He’s taking me through the process of this is the tree because we see cinnamon and it looks, yeah, it comes in a quill, thank you very much. How does the star anise come? So, I found it amazing and it improved my palate, which, I was lucky enough that I just kind of recognized a few senses and flavors myself, which was pure fluke, but he really took it to a new level and I’m eternally grateful.

Susan: It’s amazing with how many ingredients you’re talking about that it really only took six months to get what you wanted.

Tom: So again, I didn’t know how complicated all of this prep, all of these processes are. When I start talking about currants, sultanas, raisins, and, I’d say to Joe, mate, come on. Let’s just chuck in the sultanas, they’re half the price of the raisins and currants, when you tested, even amongst the orange and the lemon and the super spices, you could tell there was a difference.

There was a different tannin for Joe, the cost is irrelevant. Okay. So, Joe just wants to make the best. And at some point, you have to say, yeah, I’m afraid we can’t have the Guatemalan well-known raisin that only comes out five times a year, five buds a year. I’m like, let’s just calm it down. So, we did the best we could while keeping it a viable project.

Susan: Now did you always know that the base spirit was going to be gin?

Tom: That’s a good question because originally it was vodka. Fairfax again, super helpful. So, why vodka as well, he said, , gin is more popular vodka. You can make it with gin. I didn’t think too much about it. The gin added a touch of Juniper to it. That was just an easy decision to make very straightforward when we switched.

Susan: So, it’s a liqueur why did you decide liqueur versus liquor? Making it sweet? Making it not sweet.

Tom: No idea really.

Susan: It just happened.

Tom: It  took on a life of its own. It’s an interesting question because I’ve recently been going out for some funding for the project. And the first question is what’s a liqueur? I strangely didn’t think that was a question that was going to get asked for me. I mean, we’ve all got liqueurs. From growing up at a young age, there’d be some kind of cassis or raspberry whatever, usually from Dijon. Picking it up on holiday, that would get syrupy.

I presumed everyone would know what a liqueur was, but. when I think about it, the flavor, the sweetness brings with it huge flavor which was interesting. So yes, there’s the raisins and there’s the freshness one thing and another, and when I started mixing it with things, I realized that it was really mixable to, not be an alternative to a martini, let’s say and so it just ended up like that really? Yeah.

Susan: All right. So, after your six months, you have something that you think is fantastic. What was your idea going forward after that time?

Tom: As in to try and sell it?

Susan: Yeah. You have this, what are you going to do with it?

Tom: Right. So, we designed the label. Right. Which, there we go.

Susan: Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. The label.

Tom: Okay. Is that for later?

Susan: No, no, no, no, no. It’s for now, but no one knows anything about it. How about Reverend Herbert? All that stuff.

Tom: Right. We’re there at the process of what are we going to call it? How do we name it? And there was nothing. I’m a big fan of things happen for reason. I am at my Auntie Caroline’s house having lunch and she brings out a flask of his from the wall, right. One of the walls. It’s got a recipe on it and It’s got sloes in it and one thing and another. I’m like, wow, I kind of suddenly been making this and he had a Reverend Hubert had this and then, then there’s this connection between me and Hubert.

Susan: Wait, wait, wait back up, back up. So, who?

Tom: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Right. So, Hubert is my great-grandfather. He was a chap who I didn’t know much about who a composer of music was. He was an amazing Reverend; he was a chess champion. He fought in the war, so lots of really interesting, good stuff, but having said all that, right. He also was married a couple of times and it was clear that he enjoyed a party.

I’ve seen all these pictures of him at a lot of parties. They’re either photos in the church of, you can imagine a Christmas Eve gathering a few carols and then a few drinks, all that situated on a tennis court because he was a big tennis fan. He insisted on a grass court naturally next to the Vicarage. When I look at all the pics, whenever I see him, he’s smiling. He’s happy. He’s jolly. He’s clearly enjoying his life and the label, right?

Susan: Wait, wait, wait, wait. So, before you picked him for his label, so did you know all of this about him?

Tom: No, I mean I knew absolutely nothing. I didn’t have a clue, didn’t have a clue.

Susan: So, you’re at dinner with your aunt and she says, here’s a flask. And you said, whose flask is this? I never knew. I wish I had known him

Tom: Exactly. And then, I started going through his stuff and there’s an amazing Bible. And then I look into the family history without getting a bit kind of Who Do You Think You Are type of thing. And it was interesting.

Susan: And what was the recipe for?

Tom: His recipe? He had two flasks, one of the recipes I couldn’t read very clearly, but it was from when he was in Egypt. So, one of his jobs was to guard the Sphinx. I’ve got photos of him in front of the Sphinx. Right. In his uniform and then I’ve got photos of him, kind of on a horse and the camel and all the rest of it. And so that recipe, you can see, raisins on there, right? You can see spices. I’m going to guess that those spices were the kind of spices we’re using now. Hence the kind of the amalgamation of the two if you want the two recipes.

Susan: Were you like, oh my God, I can’t believe that a relative of mine was making a spirit and I’m making the same spirit practically?

Tom: I suddenly thought this is absolutely remarkable. When that kind of stuff came together, there was no question that my ambition to make this happen became more and I was super keen to get Hubert out there, Hubert Bell, which I think is quite a cool name and to see what happened.

Susan: You couldn’t make this up.

Tom: No, you can’t.

Susan: This was meant to be. Okay. Now let’s get back to the label. So, you have the liquid, how did you decide the branding, the marketing. Obviously, you think okay, it’s got to be Reverend Hubert. It’s a great name. The style of the bottle, and definitely the label.

Tom: The label came about because I read articles about him. During one of the wars, the Belgian refugees came to England and he was at the time based near Nottingham. They shifted them away from London as, as they did. One of the things that he did, which just remained in my mind was to go round, no one had any money or anything, but he used to collect eggs.

He used to persuade anyone with chickens to collect eggs, and then that was reported in the papers about being a good idea to be resourceful, as we were in those days. I read some of the love letters that he’d had and received. It made me think of a label which really wanted to show two sides of his character. Here you’ve got his halo,

Susan: Now a lot of people might not see it. But it’s very, very colorful. It’s like a stained-glass window with his face on it. So go on. Describe it for us.

Tom: Well, it’s stained-glass windows. Amongst the label, there are meanings, which one is his saintliness with the halo. On the opposite side of the bottle is his kind of party style. It’s got a picture of a martini glass. It’s got a tennis ball, it’s got some hidden meanings to show his appreciation of great things in life, which I think women were one of the things he appreciated.

It’s a fun label and it’s a fun drink. The label is fun. It’s meant to be fun. It’s a seriously well-made drink, but it is for fun. It’s meant to be for fun. It’s meant to be for celebrating, just like the Rev would have his parties. And that’s the label and the Rev coming together.

Susan: Now how long did it take you to create this label? Cause it’s, it’s really beautiful and it’s pretty intricate.

Tom: I would be useless at that. I met lots of people who had some half decent ideas and all that was going through my mind was Fairfax back in my two-hour meeting in High Road House, just going the label, the label, the label, the label.

You get to a point where you think, gosh, I’ve spent a lot of time on that. I really want to get on with things, but in the back of your mind, you’re not quite there. I  remember let’s say three months in just scrapping everything and starting again and watching my bank account drain. I had this great chap called Luke – we just came together at the right time, I think, clearing everything off, starting again. It was a half decent enjoyable process, which these things can or cannot be.

Susan: So, you got the label, you got the bottle, it’s a great looking bottle and you’re making it, by the way. Where do you make it?

Tom: Some great friends, Wood Brothers make it, And it’s right next to Brize Norton. If anyone can picture those big planes taking off, taking our boys off to Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever. When you’re seeing that plane take off, that’s where we’re making it.

Susan: All right. So, you got it in the Cotswolds. You have it in the bottle. What do you do next? Obviously, you laugh.

Tom: Yeah, in my head when I drink this and when I sip it, I am picturing a Fortnum and Mason mince pie, right? I love mince pies and Fortnum’s mince pies are ridiculously good.

In my head, I thought, I’ll go and get this into Fortnum and Mason. This is probably where my lack of experience in doing this helped. I think there is a bit of this kind of, you’ve got to got to put it into various shops and pubs and then the public pick it up.

Whereas I was, I want it in M&S, so Fortnum’s loved it and stocked it. I mean, so my first deal is with Fortnum and Mason, and then making me this awesome. I don’t know what you call it plinths or whatever it is. It’s got a nice glass case with my bottle in a case, and now I’m like, wow, unstoppable. Here we go.

Susan: One of the things I always say is if you don’t play you can’t win.

Tom: Yeah.

Susan: You just have to ask. People can always say no, but you just have to ask. Sometimes it works out with you and Fortnum Mason, how fabulous. So, they’ve got it in a glass case. It says Reverend Hubert Winter Gin Liqueur, come on and get it. How did it do?

Tom: It did amazingly well. Again, amazingly well for me at that stage. It’s probably different from now because if I could sell six bottles, I was pretty happy. But we were selling hundreds and on the back of this and, on the back of the great people at Fortnum’s,

we came together then for me to make a Fortnum and Mason Mince Pie and Marmalade liqueur: so, the Mince Pie-ness of the Reverend Winter is there. I love marmalade. So, we had a chat and said, well, that might be a dumb idea, but how about we make this?

We make this Mince Pie and Marmalade liqueur, which has got my signature on the front, which I still find super weird. I mean, I used to have a proper job and now I’m just loving everything I do.

Susan: Now, wait, I have a question about that first run.

Tom: , Well, I’m going to give away secrets here. So, I’m made about a thousand bottles.

Susan: Oh, okay. So, you had enough when people…

Tom: Well, no, because Ollie Smith from Saturday kitchen, then says, right, to put it on the telly. This is mid-December a couple of years ago, and I don’t particularly know what to expect when it’s on TV. I call up friends in the business and they explained that it’s sometimes you can get some sales and sometimes you can’t.

I spoke to a friend of mine who was on the Christmas before, and I think he sold a hundred bottles and he was like, it’s good. You sell a hundred bottles. So, it went on Saturday Kitchen and I’m watching in my living room, in my pajamas, and it’s all going well. They’re awfully kind and I don’t think much of it. I just go and have my bacon sandwich and I’m thinking, wow, that’s so cool. Then I pick up my iPad and there are 1,500 Messages. And so, my first thing was someone’s hacked like, oh, annoying, and then I realized these were just Paypals coming in.

Then I think, hang on, I’ve only got 300 bottles left. So, I literally get in the car, I drive to the Cotswolds and I just start making it. And it’s not an easy process. So, it’s about a three-week process. I have guaranteed everyone.  I wrote to people. Well, I’ve sort of typed an email to say, I will make sure you have it by Christmas Day. I didn’t really know what I was doing. So, I’m at the post office all the time. I’m doing boxes, I’ve got all one of those big sellotape things, the tape on that Amazon use seal up stuff.

I managed to get every single person their bottles the last bottle I delivered by hand on Christmas Day morning. So, it went absolutely crazy. I can’t say I enjoyed the two weeks of darkness in the farm in the Cotswolds, because that was hard work at -5, but we got there in the end.

Susan: That that’s amazing. That’s such an amazing story. So, now a couple of years later, how has it been for you to be the owner of a spirit company?

Tom: It was still the same fun. Susan, the point is and the joy of doing this is that it’s just good run. Right? So, every day there’s good fun. I enjoy meeting people. I enjoy chatting to people.

I think things are more serious now. We’ve got some investment in the business. There’s only so long that you could make 5,000 bottles demand, which is great. It’s too big for me to keep it up on my own. I need people to help me and to do that. I now have a responsibility to other people, which I love. We’ve got fun people involved, we’ve got the Duke of Norfolk, Eddy, who has invested in spirits before and who knows what he’s doing. He who brings cleverness and knowledge and fun to the party. That’s the experience that we’re going for. And we’ve got a garden gin version Fortnum and Mason would like me to make something else for them.

Susan: So, wait, so you have a summer one as well?

Tom: We do, right? The summer version, if winter is a mince pie, summer is daisies and gardens and plums and rhubarb and pomegranates and a nice alternative to our traditional Pimm’s and a big jug of something outside with a few strawberries. That had a success over this summer, but next year, we’re really going to boost it and get it out of about.

Susan: For those who buy a bottle and are having a big party and they want to serve it to their guests, not just after dinner. Do you combine it with cocktails? How do you think that someone should enjoy your Reverend Hubert?

Tom: This is interesting because I remember the first time  me and Joe made God, that was a long day. Right? We made a lot of cocktails and what amazed me. Wow. How versatile it is. And, and the point of making it was to be versatile. It wasn’t to sit at the back of a cupboard.

When we make things, I might seem weird, but I’m always surprised that it works with this liqueur with the lemons and the oranges and the spices and the sweetness , there’s always something that can match and blend with something else.

 At the moment, what I’m loving, and with the Christmas round the corner, a champagne cocktail using Rev and adding some bitters and a sugar cube and a maraschino cherry, so you’ve got the fizz of the cube and the maraschino cherry turns it slightly pink. You’ve got this like mini volcano coming up.

You’ve got a bit of drama in the drink and a bit of sparkle and the Rev, I remember my parents drinking champagne cocktails at parties. When I was about 13, 14, and there’s no question that was one of a party I’ll never forget because people were just all over the place. It went on all night. I could tell the champagne cocktails were strong.

My dad loves it in a Negroni, switching the gin out, the orange and the lemon do make it slightly sweeter. Again, I meet some people that are traditional Negroni drinkers, it’s kind of up to you a bit what you want to do, chuck it in with some Ginger Ale or some clementine, just try something, who knows?

Susan: Oh, it all sounds divine. It all sounds divine now.  I have two questions that I wanted to ask you. Since you were a home bartender kind of by default, do you have any top tips that you could give our home bartenders out there? Not just using your spirit, but just in general and that you, I guess, figured out when you were making cocktails yourself.

Tom: When I started making cocktails, you feel slightly scared, right? That, I don’t know what I’m doing that. So, there’s no point being scared because most cocktails are going to taste good. Okay. You don’t have to go to Shoreditch and find the special ingredient.

Use ingredients that are on your doorsteps and when you think, what am I going to do? What can I use? And you’ve got a Campari and you’ve got some gin. I’m always a big fan of shaking stuff. I love shaking things. I think that ritual of shaking, your nice cocktail shaker and pouring into different glasses, it doesn’t have to be a martini glass, or it can be a coupe for champagne.

I think guys can work it out on their own. I had a conversation with someone recently who spoke about you must have a signature serve for the Rev and yes, we’ve got a few signature serves, but I’m not going to say to anyone do this or do that, have fun with it. That’s the point of having it be a bartender, enjoy, have a laugh.

Susan: Absolutely, just one caveat. Do not shake champagne. Do not shake champagne and anything with bubbles. Also, as we all learned, you don’t just have to stir a Negroni. We learned that last year with our dear friend Stanley Tucci who shook his Negroni all over the place.

Tom: I was doing that as well, and I think he was a big fan of Stanley, who doesn’t like Stanley, a legend! I think it amalgamates them together and it creates a kind of nice, a little bit of white foam on the top, which visually appealing. He’s the man, he’s doing it. Yeah. Good.

Susan: Exactly. It was the Negroni that was heard around the world. Now I always leave my guests asking them one question, which is, if you could be drinking anything anywhere right now, where would that be? And what would it be?

Tom: Susan. Good question. I lived in Australia for a long time. I absolutely love Sydney. It’s one of my favorite places in the world. New Year’s in Sydney, there’s a place on Bondi Beach called Icebergs, right, which is an amazing restaurant. You can sit there, you can watch the surfers, you can see everything coming in.

You can have a cool cocktail. I don’t even care what the cocktail is, to be honest, anything they’re making in that spot would be amazing. It’d be nice to be back there and see my friends over there that I hadn’t seen for way too long. So that would be my spot.

Susan: Oh, gosh, I love that. That sounds divine. Well, it has been so great to have you on the show. I can’t wait to drink the champagne cocktail. I’m going to make it tonight. Definitely. And have a wonderful holiday and it’s great. As I said, it’s such a beautiful bottle. I love it. And what’s inside is even more beautiful. So, thank you so much for being on the show.

Tom: Thank you, Susan. That’s been great. Nice to see you.

Don’t miss out on any Lush Life episodes!

You can get this and all future audio files automatically downloaded to your mobile device easy. You can listen on Apple Podcast or Spotify too. Or click the player or link above to listen to just this episode. (But trust me, you’ll want to subscribe!)

If you live for Lush Life would you consider supporting us… Just go to https://substack.com/@alushlifemanual and you can donate once or monthly to make sure we are still here almost every Tuesday.

Lush Life Merchandise is here – we’re talking t-shirts, mugs, iphone covers, duvet covers, ipad covers and more covers for everything!  and more!

Theme music for Lush Life is by Steven Shapiro, and used with permission.

Lush Life is always and will be forever produced by Evo Terra and Simpler Media Productions.